{"id":625,"date":"2008-04-07T11:09:43","date_gmt":"2008-04-07T11:09:43","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/scientopia.org\/blogs\/goodmath\/2008\/04\/07\/schools-of-thought-in-probability-theory\/"},"modified":"2008-04-07T11:09:43","modified_gmt":"2008-04-07T11:09:43","slug":"schools-of-thought-in-probability-theory","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/2008\/04\/07\/schools-of-thought-in-probability-theory\/","title":{"rendered":"Schools of thought in Probability Theory"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> To understand a lot of statistical ideas, you need to know about<br \/>\nprobability. The two fields are inextricably entwined: sampled statistics<br \/>\nworks because of probabilistic properties of populations.<\/p>\n<p> I approach writing about probability with no small amount of trepidation.<\/p>\n<p> For some reason that I&#8217;ve never quite understood, discussions of probability<br \/>\ntheory bring out an intensity of emotion that is more extreme than anything else<br \/>\nI&#8217;ve seen in mathematics. It&#8217;s an almost religious topic, like programming<br \/>\nlanguages in CS. This post is intended really as a flame attractor: that is, I&#8217;d request that if you want to argue about Bayesian probability versus frequentist probability, please do it here, and don&#8217;t clutter up every comment thread that<br \/>\ndiscusses probability! <\/p>\n<p>  There are two main schools of thought in probability:<br \/>\nfrequentism and Bayesianism, and the Bayesians have an intense contempt for the<br \/>\nfrequentists. As I said, I really don&#8217;t get it: the intensity seems to be mostly<br \/>\none way &#8211; I can&#8217;t count the number of times that I&#8217;ve read Bayesian screeds about<br \/>\nthe intense stupidity of frequentists, but not the other direction. And while I<br \/>\nsit out the dispute &#8211; I&#8217;m undecided; sometimes I lean frequentist, and sometimes I<br \/>\nlean Bayesian &#8211; every time I write about probability, I get emails and comments<br \/>\nfrom tons of Bayesians tearing me to ribbons for not being sufficiently<br \/>\nBayesian.<\/p>\n<p> It&#8217;s hard to even define probability without getting into trouble, because the<br \/>\ntwo schools of thought end up defining it quite differently.<\/p>\n<p> The frequentist approach to probability basically defines probability in terms<br \/>\nof experiment. If you repeated an experiment an infinite number of times, and<br \/>\nyou&#8217;d find that out of every 1,000 trials, a given outcome occured 350 times, then<br \/>\na frequentist would say that the probability of that outcome was 35%. Based on<br \/>\nthat, a frequentist says that for a given event, there is a <em>true<\/em><br \/>\nprobability associated with it: the probability that you&#8217;d get from repeated<br \/>\ntrials. The frequentist approach is thus based on studying the &#8220;real&#8221; probability<br \/>\nof things &#8211; trying to determine how close a given measurement from a set of<br \/>\nexperiments is to the real probability. So a frequentist would define probability<br \/>\nas the mathematics of predicting the actual likelihood of certain events occuring<br \/>\nbased on observed patterns.<\/p>\n<p> The bayesian approach is based on incomplete knowledge. It says that you only<br \/>\nassociate a probability with an event because there is uncertainty about it &#8211;<br \/>\nbecause you don&#8217;t know all the facts. In reality, a given event either will happen<br \/>\n(probability=100%) or it won&#8217;t happen (probability=0%). Anything else is an<br \/>\napproximation based on your incomplete knowledge. The Bayesian approach is<br \/>\ntherefore based on the idea of refining predictions in the face of new knowledge.<br \/>\nA Bayesian would define probability as a mathematical system of measuring the<br \/>\ncompleteness of knowledge used to make predictions. So to a Bayesian, strictly speaking, it&#8217;s incorrect to say &#8220;I predict that there&#8217;s a 30% chance of P&#8221;, but rather &#8220;Based on the current state of my knowledge, I am 30% certain that P will occur.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p> Like I said, I tend to sit in the middle. On the one hand, I think that the<br \/>\nBayesian approach makes some things clearer. For example, a lot of people<br \/>\nfrequently misunderstand how to apply statistics: they&#8217;ll take a study showing<br \/>\nthat, say, 10 out of 100 smokers will develop cancer, and assume that it means<br \/>\nthat for a specific smoker, there&#8217;s a 10% chance that they&#8217;ll develop cancer.<br \/>\nThat&#8217;s not true. The study showing that 10 out of 100 people who smoke will develop cancer can be taken as a good starting point for making a prediction &#8211; but a Bayesian will be very clear on the fact that it&#8217;s incomplete knowledge, and that it therefore isn&#8217;t very meaningful unless you can add more information to increase the certainty.<\/p>\n<p> On the other hand, Bayesian reasoning is <a href=\"http:\/\/scientopia.org\/blogs\/goodmath\/2006\/07\/why-i-hate-religious-bayesians\">often used by cranks.<\/a><br \/>\nA Bayesian<br \/>\nargues that you can do a probabilistic analysis of almost anything, by lining<br \/>\nup the set of factors that influence it, and combining your knowledge of those factors in the correct way. That&#8217;s been used incredibly frequently by cranks for<br \/>\narguing for the existence of God, for the &#8220;fact&#8221; that aliens have visited the<br \/>\nearth, for the &#8220;fact&#8221; that artists have been planting secret messages in<br \/>\npaintings, for the &#8220;fact&#8221; that there are magic codes embedded in various holy texts, etc. I&#8217;ve dealt with these sorts of arguments numerous times on this blog; the link above is a typical example. <\/p>\n<p> Frequentism doesn&#8217;t fall victim to that problem; a frequentist <em>only<\/em><br \/>\nbelieves probabilities make sense in the setting of a repeatable experiment. You<br \/>\ncan&#8217;t properly formulate something like a probabilistic proof of God under the<br \/>\nfrequentist approach, because the existence of a creator of the universe isn&#8217;t a<br \/>\nproblem amenable to repeated experimental trials. But frequentism suffers<br \/>\nfrom the idea that there <em>is<\/em> an absolute probability for things &#8211; which is often ridiculous.<\/p>\n<p> I&#8217;d argue that they&#8217;re both right, and both wrong, each in their own settings. There are definitely settings in which the idea of a fixed probability based on a model of repeatable, controlled experiment is, quite simply, silly. And there<br \/>\nare settings in which the idea of a probability only measuring a state of knowledge is equally silly.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>To understand a lot of statistical ideas, you need to know about probability. The two fields are inextricably entwined: sampled statistics works because of probabilistic properties of populations. I approach writing about probability with no small amount of trepidation. For some reason that I&#8217;ve never quite understood, discussions of probability theory bring out an intensity [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[61],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-625","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-statistics"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p4lzZS-a5","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/625","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=625"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/625\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=625"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=625"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=625"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}