{"id":813,"date":"2009-10-19T15:54:52","date_gmt":"2009-10-19T15:54:52","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/scientopia.org\/blogs\/goodmath\/2009\/10\/19\/sorry-denise-but-god-didnt-make-numbers\/"},"modified":"2009-10-19T15:54:52","modified_gmt":"2009-10-19T15:54:52","slug":"sorry-denise-but-god-didnt-make-numbers","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/2009\/10\/19\/sorry-denise-but-god-didnt-make-numbers\/","title":{"rendered":"Sorry, Denise &#8211; but God didn&#039;t make numbers"},"content":{"rendered":"<p> I was planning on ignoring this one, but tons of readers have been writing<br \/>\nto me about the latest inanity spouting from the keyboard of Discovery<br \/>\nInstitute&#8217;s flunky, Denise O&#8217;Leary. <\/p>\n<p> Here&#8217;s what she had to say:<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p> Even though I am not a creationist by any reasonable definition,<br \/>\nI sometimes get pegged as the local gap tooth creationist moron. (But then I<br \/>\ndon&#8217;t have gaps in my teeth either. Check unretouched photos.)<\/p>\n<p>As the best gap tooth they could come up with, a local TV station interviewed<br \/>\nme about &#8220;superstition&#8221; the other day.<\/p>\n<p> The issue turned out to be superstition related to numbers. Were they hoping<br \/>\nI&#8217;d fall in?<\/p>\n<p>The skinny: Some local people want their house numbers changed because they<br \/>\nfeel the current number assignment is &#8220;unlucky.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p> Look, guys, numbers here are assigned on a strict directional rota. If the<br \/>\nnumber bugs you so much, move.<\/p>\n<p> Don&#8217;t mess up the street directory for everyone else. Paramedics, fire chiefs,<br \/>\npolice chiefs, et cetera, might need a directory they can make sense of. You<br \/>\nmight be glad for that yourself one day.<\/p>\n<p> Anyway, I didn&#8217;t get a chance to say this on the program so I will now: No<br \/>\nnumbers are evil or unlucky. All numbers are &#8211; in my view &#8211; created by God to<br \/>\nmarch in a strict series or else a discoverable* series, and that is what<br \/>\nmakes mathematics possible. And mathematics is evidence for design, not<br \/>\nsuperstition.<\/p>\n<p> The interview may never have aired. I tend to flub the gap-tooth creationist<br \/>\nmoron role, so interviews with me are often not aired.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n<p> * I am thinking here of numbers like pi, that just go on and on and never<br \/>\nshut up, but you can work with them anyway.(You just decide where you want<br \/>\nto cut the mike.)<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p><!--more--><\/p>\n<p> It&#8217;s such concentrated stupidity, it&#8217;s hard to know quite where to start. So<br \/>\nhow about we start at the beginning?<\/p>\n<p> Denise O&#8217;Leary claims <em>not<\/em> to be a creationist by &#8220;any reasonable<br \/>\ndefinition&#8221;? Yeesh. No point even trying to argue with that. She&#8217;s just playing<br \/>\nthe usual ID&#8217;ers games with the definition of &#8220;creationist&#8221;.<\/p>\n<p> Then, very rapidly, we get the usual victimization rant. Poor, poor<br \/>\nDenise. Such an unfortunate soul, so looked down on. I mean, she spews<br \/>\nnon-stop nonsense, and all she gets for it is a nice salary, lots of attention,<br \/>\na publishing contract, and some television interviews. Those IDers sure are<br \/>\nput upon, aren&#8217;t they?<\/p>\n<p> Then &#8211; <b>shock!<\/b> &#8211; she gets something <em>right<\/em>. The subject of<br \/>\nthe interview was goofy people who want their house numbers changed, because<br \/>\nthey think that they got unlucky numbers. Yeah, that&#8217;s pretty stupid.<br \/>\nAbsolutely. <\/p>\n<p> It brings to mind an interesting story. Back when I was in college, my<br \/>\nfamily had to move. My parents had taken out a ten-year renegotiable mortgage,<br \/>\nand they couldn&#8217;t afford the increased payments while also making the tuition<br \/>\nbills for me and my brother. They ended up selling the house very quickly. But<br \/>\nit was really strange. The people who bought it were Chinese, and they hated<br \/>\njust about <em>everything<\/em> about the house. They hated the landscaping.<br \/>\nThey hated the kitchen. They hated the tiling. They hated the slate foyer.<br \/>\nThey hated the windows. They hated the parquet wood floors. They thought it<br \/>\nwas too big. Honestly, if there was anything that they actually <em>liked<\/em><br \/>\nabout the house, I don&#8217;t know what it was. But they bought it. Because <em>it<br \/>\nfaced in the right direction<\/em>, and it was the only house facing exactly<br \/>\nthat direction on the market. Their feng shui master had told them that they<br \/>\n<em>must<\/em> have a house that faced in that direction &#8211; that anything else<br \/>\nwould bring them terrible luck. So they bought it.<\/p>\n<p> People believe all sorts of strange things. There are all sorts of peculiar<br \/>\nsuperstitions, about numbers, names, shapes, colors, directions. It&#8217;s all silly.<br \/>\nAnd it&#8217;s amazing how many of us still hold on to those odd ideas, or at least<br \/>\nthe behaviors that they imply. To get personal, I know perfectly well that<br \/>\nnothing I say is going to cause the world to turn on me and make something<br \/>\nbad happen. But European Jews have a lot of superstitions about drawing attention<br \/>\nto themselves, and I <em>never<\/em> say things like &#8220;Well, things couldn&#8217;t<br \/>\npossibly get any worse&#8221;, or &#8220;Things are so great, I can&#8217;t imagine how they could<br \/>\nget better&#8221;. Those are both statements that &#8220;draw attention&#8221;. I know how stupid<br \/>\nit is, but that doesn&#8217;t change the feeling I get in the pit of my stomach when<br \/>\nsomeone says something like that.<\/p>\n<p> So yeah, superstitions like that are silly, and they do deserve to be<br \/>\nmocked. Mine included. But I&#8217;ll bet you dollars to donuts that Denise wouldn&#8217;t<br \/>\nbuy a house where a satanist had performed his phony rituals without getting<br \/>\nit purified by a priest with holy water, and that she wouldn&#8217;t see anything<br \/>\nremotely silly about it. She sees <em>her<\/em> superstitions as legitimate,<br \/>\nbut others as mockable.<\/p>\n<p> ANyway, enough of that. Let&#8217;s get to the good part.<\/p>\n<p> She says &#8220;No numbers are evil or unlucky. All numbers are &#8211; in my view &#8211;<br \/>\ncreated by God to march in a strict series or else a discoverable* series, and<br \/>\nthat is what makes mathematics possible. And mathematics is evidence for<br \/>\ndesign, not superstition.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p> Oy, oy, oy.<\/p>\n<p> Numbers were not created by a supernatural being. No deity, no matter how<br \/>\npowerful, could have created a universe where numbers didn&#8217;t exist, or didn&#8217;t<br \/>\nwork. <\/p>\n<p> This is a surprisingly difficult and subtle point. But numbers, in some<br \/>\nsense, aren&#8217;t <em>real<\/em>. They&#8217;re purely conceptual. There&#8217;s no such thing<br \/>\nin the real universe as the number 2. There are plenty of examples of &#8220;two<br \/>\nobjects&#8221;, but the number 2 doesn&#8217;t exist. Far worse, there is absolutely no<br \/>\nway of claiming that &pi; really exists. There are no perfect circles in the<br \/>\nuniverse. And the only sense in which &pi; can possibly exist in the real<br \/>\nuniverse is as a measurement. <\/p>\n<p> Numbers are an artifact of reasoning. They don&#8217;t exist out there in the<br \/>\nvoid, waiting for someone to find them. They&#8217;re a consequence of a simple set<br \/>\nof rules. And those rules <em>must<\/em> work. There&#8217;s no way that God can<br \/>\nchange the nature of an abstraction that doesn&#8217;t really exist. He could make<br \/>\nit impossible for us to <em>conceive<\/em> of those rules. But the rules would<br \/>\n<em>still<\/em> work. Even if there was <em>no universe at all<\/em>, those<br \/>\nrules could still be said to exist, and therefore, that the numbers still<br \/>\nexist.<\/p>\n<p> It comes down to a deceptively simple question: &#8220;What is a number?&#8221;. And<br \/>\nthere is no single answer to that question! I can define numbers informally,<br \/>\nby counting. I can formalize that a bit, and get two different kinds of<br \/>\nnumbers: ordinals and cardinals. I can formalize differently, and get surreal<br \/>\nnumbers. Still another way, I can start with different rules, and get Piano<br \/>\nnumbers. Or another way, and get computable numbers. I can define real<br \/>\nnumbers, complex numbers, vectors, quaternions. Those are all perfectly valid<br \/>\nconcepts &#8211; and they&#8217;re all <em>different<\/em>. Which one <em>really<\/em><br \/>\ndefines numbers? All of them. None of them. Take your pick. Numbers are<br \/>\nwhat you want them to be. They don&#8217;t exist outside of your mind. They&#8217;re a tool<br \/>\nthat we use to understand the universe &#8211; but they don&#8217;t have any real,<br \/>\nobjective reality. <\/p>\n<p> But Denise&#8217;s stupidity doesn&#8217;t end there. She needs to qualify things &#8211; the<br \/>\nnumbers &#8220;all proceed in a strict series, or else a discoverable series&#8221;.<\/p>\n<p> Bzzzt. Wrong. <\/p>\n<p> You can look at that statement in two ways. One way of looking at it &#8211; which<br \/>\nI think is the one she meant &#8211; is just completely, utterly, wrong. The other way,<br \/>\nwhich you could reasonably argue is the correct interpretation, is totally<br \/>\nfouled up by that qualification.<\/p>\n<p><b>Interpretation one:<\/b><\/p>\n<p> <em>&#8220;The numbers all proceed in a strict series&#8221;<\/em>. My initial reading<br \/>\nof this is that &#8220;series&#8221; implies a listing or enumeration of one number after<br \/>\nanother. <\/p>\n<p> The problem with this is that you can&#8217;t put the real numbers into<br \/>\nthat kind of series. The real numbers are an uncountable set: you can&#8217;t<br \/>\nenumerate the elements of an uncountable set. So they can&#8217;t possibly be<br \/>\nput in a series.<\/p>\n<p> You could weasel out of that problem, by saying that the<br \/>\nqualification solves the problem: you <em>can<\/em> enumerate the rational<br \/>\nnumbers: you can put them into a kind of series. Since she explicitly mentions<br \/>\nnumbers like &pi; as being <em>exceptions<\/em>, you could argue that she meant<br \/>\nthat the rational numbers could be put into a series, and that the &#8220;discoverable<br \/>\nseries&#8221; qualification was meant to cover the irrational numbers. <\/p>\n<p> Alas, that doesn&#8217;t work either. First, from her wording and description, I<br \/>\nreally don&#8217;t think that when she said the numbers are in a strict series, that<br \/>\nshe had in mind an ordering where, for example, 2 comes before 1\/3, and<br \/>\n1\/3 comes before 1\/100.  But you can&#8217;t enumerate the rationals in<br \/>\nanything like comparison order, which is what I think she was trying<br \/>\nto say.<\/p>\n<p> In addition to that point, I&#8217;d say that there&#8217;s something seriously wrong<br \/>\nwith a definition where the <em>exception<\/em> covers the overwhelming<br \/>\nmajority of cases. Most numbers are irrational &#8211; but her phrasing implies that<br \/>\nthe irrationals are sort-of strange exceptions.<\/p>\n<p> But I left the worse for last. As I&#8217;ve mentioned before, <em><a href=\"http:\/\/scienceblogs.com\/goodmath\/2009\/05\/you_cant_write_that_number_in.php\">most<br \/>\nnumbers are undescribable<\/a><\/em>. You can&#8217;t discover them. You can&#8217;t<br \/>\ndescribe them. You can&#8217;t name them. You can&#8217;t point at them. And yet, by the<br \/>\ndefinition of real numbers, they <em>must<\/em> exist. So even forgetting about<br \/>\nthe whole ordering issue, the idea of all numbers being discoverable, is just<br \/>\ntotally <em>wrong<\/em>. They&#8217;re not. Numbers are much stranger, much less<br \/>\nrational, less intuitively comprehensible, less well-behaved than her naive<br \/>\nunderstanding.<\/p>\n<p><b>Interpretation Two<\/b><\/p>\n<p> The second interpretation is that &#8220;the numbers all proceed in a strict series&#8221; is a poorly<br \/>\nphrased way of saying that the real numbers are <em>totally ordered<\/em>. <em>That<\/em> is a fact:<br \/>\ngiven any two distinct real numbers X and Y, either X&lt;Y or Y&lt;X. That&#8217;s correct. But if<br \/>\nthat&#8217;s what she meant, then she blew herself out of the water with the qualification: because<br \/>\nirrational numbers like &pi; are <em>still<\/em> part of the total ordering of the real numbers.<br \/>\nPulling them out by that qualifier implies that she doesn&#8217;t believe that they&#8217;re part of<br \/>\nthe series &#8211; which in this interpretation means that you can&#8217;t always compare them. But even given<br \/>\ntwo irrational numbers, they&#8217;re always comparable. Even the undescribables.<\/p>\n<p> And the qualification <em>still<\/em> fails exactly the same way it did in case one: most<br \/>\nnumbers <em>aren&#8217;t<\/em> discoverable, describable, nameable, identifyable, or enumerable.<\/p>\n<p> So again, she fails miserably. <\/p>\n<p> The takeaway point here is that numbers are both less real, much stranger,<br \/>\nand frankly a whole lot more interesting than Denise O&#8217;Leary imagines. As<br \/>\nusual for Creationists (and yes, Denise, you <em>are<\/em> a creationist!),<br \/>\nshe&#8217;s taken a simplistic understanding of something, mistaken her simplistic<br \/>\nunderstanding for a deep comprehension of it, and then argued that on the<br \/>\nbasis of its alleged simplicity that it must have been designed by her deity.<\/p>\n<p> Her version of numbers can&#8217;t account for undescribable numbers. It can&#8217;t<br \/>\naccount for much of the beautiful strangeness of numbers. It can&#8217;t account for<br \/>\nlogical wierdness like G&ouml;del&#8217;s incompleteness theorem, which relies on the<br \/>\nlogical structure of numbers. It can&#8217;t account for some of the magnificent strangeness<br \/>\nthat people like Greg Chaitin have studied. As is all too common, she&#8217;s so satisfied<br \/>\nwith her simplifications that she&#8217;s completely missed both the pathology and the beauty<br \/>\nof numbers. It&#8217;s sad.<\/p>\n<p> It should be obvious, looking at this blog, that I&#8217;m deeply in love with<br \/>\nmathematics. Math is beautiful, and fascinating, and frustrating, and strange.<br \/>\nPeople like Denise O&#8217;Leary try to sap out everything that makes it wonderful<br \/>\nin order to be able to say that they understand it, and that their personal<br \/>\ndeity created it. God didn&#8217;t create math. Math is a collection of formalisms<br \/>\nthat <em>we<\/em> created from the basic rules of logic &#8211; and those rules<br \/>\n<em>must<\/em> hold, no matter what the universe is like. Because they aren&#8217;t<br \/>\nrules about the universe &#8211; they&#8217;re self-contained rules about concepts that<br \/>\nthey describe.<\/p>\n<p> If you&#8217;re religious like me, you might believe that there is some deity that<br \/>\ncreated the Universe. Or you might not. But whether there is a God or not has nothing<br \/>\nto do with whether A&and;&not;A == false.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>I was planning on ignoring this one, but tons of readers have been writing to me about the latest inanity spouting from the keyboard of Discovery Institute&#8217;s flunky, Denise O&#8217;Leary. Here&#8217;s what she had to say: Even though I am not a creationist by any reasonable definition, I sometimes get pegged as the local gap [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[16,43],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-813","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-debunking-creationism","category-numbers"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p4lzZS-d7","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/813","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=813"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/813\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=813"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=813"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.goodmath.org\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=813"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}